Number one stupid mistake: All democratic candidates not openly condemning MoveOn.org. They apparently put a full page ad in the New York Times, calling the general, about to make the report on Iraq, General Betrayus. This is an idiotic error. It's like sparking the fire of outrage that will lose the democrats the next election. Moveon.org is inflammatory and causes elections to be lost. This ad is prime example and should never have been placed. Are there no brains within the Democratic Party for political strategy?
Number two stupid mistake: debating in Spanish. This irritated me somewhere inside and I don't even know why. It's like an English speaking American isn't important to these candidates, but the people who came over the border illegally, their votes are important. And many illegals vote, let's face it. If they can get Social Security cards and Driver's Licenses, they can slip by and register to vote. If a WA state woman's dog can get registered to vote, with a pawprint as signature and the error go unnoticed for months, anybody on the PLanet could register to vote in America. Debating in Spanish endorses illegal immigration and allienates Americans, especially Independents and swing vote Republicans. Again I ask, are there no brains within Democratic political stragegists?
This is an election year. The Republicans had it down with Carl Rove running the campaigns, slick and smart. The Democrats will lose it again with such stupid mistakes.
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I understand your frustration but I guess because I live in Canada, I see no problem with a Spanish debate. The majority of Spanish speaking citizens are legal immigrants and just like my Irish American immigrant ancestors, are part of the USA.
ReplyDeleteThere is no doubt the dems, like all politicians, are pandering but it is no different than other events that favour various groups. What is the difference with having sign language interpreters than having a debate in Spanish or as we do in Canada, French?
I think of a poster I saw at a university in New York state. It read "we may have all come in separate ships but we are in the same boat now". The more languages we know, the better we all are!
What DOES upset me is a recent decision in Canada by the Chief Electoral Officer to allow Muslim women to wear veils when they vote! I am a feminist and value the culture of others but that I think can lead to all manner of problems - people in large cities voting more than twice by using this system and it subjugates women so it should be outlawed if not for that reason alone!!!
My issue isn't the Spanish questions, but the wisdom of such campaign strategy. The election will be decided by the middle of the road people, the independents, not the radicals on either side. So why inflame the moderates and independents? It is not good campaign stategy. It's sad it's come to such a state, that campaigns must be plotted so intricately and slickly, but they must be. If the face of the democratic party is again Moveon.org, as it was last time, the election may again be lost. Radicals should not define a political party, especially not in an election year. People hear their loud often obnoxious in your face rude disrespectful messages, and equate that with the candidate. Moderates are often uncomfortable with the extremists on both sides. In this age, campaigns need to be smart.
ReplyDeleteI understand why that decision from Canada would upset you. It would upset me. Many Muslim sects and Muslim extremist sects treat women horrendously.
Recently, Pakistani tribal extremists beheaded two women suspected of being prostitutes, citing their moral depravity, while doing nothing to the men, of course, who frequent brothels.
Many Iraqi women, widowed by war, have become prostitutes in order to survive. While they are condemned and their lives made into hell, and often threatened, as immoral, the men are never held to account. It's always the women bearing the burdens of some cultures' twisted morality.
This is one reason I celebrate every time I hear of Taliban killed. A bell rings in heaven. Hahahaha.
The other thing, as for language, is, the barrier itself. If we spoke one language, at least as a nation, communication is enhance, especially in time of national crises or emergency. If we can't communicate, nothing is accomplished. To communicate, it is easier if there is one language, that everyone knows, even if it is not spoken by many most of the time. If they know it, communication can more easily occur.
ReplyDeleteI don't think illegal immigrants vote or would even try to vote.
ReplyDeletePlenty of Spanish speakers are legal citizens. In fact most of them are. They are the fastest growing ethnic group in this country, so taking notice of them would make sense. Plenty of Mexican-Americans in the southwest and California were here before the Americans.
I don't think you can deport 10 million illegals. These people are working hard for very little money. You would be paying more for a lot of things if not for them. They also pay money into Social Security if they are using a fake number, without getting anything back. They are exploited by their employers. Yeah, they also use social services. I don't like the situation either. We now have a permanent underclass in this country. That's not a good situation.
Hi Strayer and others,
ReplyDeleteI understand what you mean by strategy. perhaps I am looking at it with a Canadian viewpoint and we tend to be a bit more to the left than Americans in general though we have a Conservative government in power now - one with about one third of the votes but that's what you get with First Past the Post. Personally I voted for the socialist party which one Liberal PM called "liberals in a hurry" and he may be right... er... correct in that assessment, lol So, my idea and your idea of "radical" may be quite different.
It irks me that so few US citizens do vote - and the situation is a little better here but we do not have voter registration like you do. It's quite different - we pay people to enumerate voters and thus the vast majority of eligible voters are on the list. It's not perfect but no system is. I rather like Australia where it is illegal NOT to vote.
This means as you note that people who should vote - the disenfranchised who have little or no representation - rarely get out to vote or are taken advantage of by others, even leftist do gooders.
I still see nothing wrong with a Spanish debate. I would like to have listened to it actually even if I do have rather rudimentary Spanish. In Canada, no one would ever be elected Prime Minister without being able to speak French and have some understanding of that culture.
I think we need to take into account that our forebears came to this country - yours and mine - as immigrants, some legally, come not - and it was not easy for them. The notion "No Irish Need Apply" comes to my mind. It is amazing really that the US has had but one Roman Catholic President. We had a RC Prime Minister, a Tory actually, lol, in the 1899's. And where I live in Nova Scotia there is little difference between the socialist NDP who make up the main Opposition party and the Progressive Conservatives though there are more right wing thinkers in the PC party certainly, especially in the rural areas. I suppose if I was a voter in the US, I'd look for a Presidential candidate like Bernie Sanders of Vermont but for now, the closest is Mr. Edwards and he is quite some way from Bernie, lol
As for the Elections Canada decision, there is much hue and cry so I expect the law will change but that still means three byelections slated for the 17 of this month will go ahead with that policy in place. It does worry me because I do not like the way women in Arab countries are treated - whether it is radical Muslim governments or dictatorships. The only democratic Muslim country is Turkey - it's too bad Saudi Arabia and other countries do not emulate them but the men in power will never give it up. It will have to be taken from them somehow, sigh!
Take care!!!
Siobhan
I tend to see the world without borders more often than not, like one big mass of humanity, with common issues that need solved.
ReplyDeleteBut the different cultures do have different practises and behaviors, some of which are reprehensible to me, like the way many Muslims treat women, like the way many Asian natons treat animals, like the corruption rampant in many governments including the Mexican government and the extreme drug cartel violence there.
Do we want America to become like Mexico?
How will the Mexican government have incentive to change things if their hard workers come to America? That is one thing I wonder. I can understand why people would try anything to get here, if they have a family to support.
But, should we have totally open borders? Should anyone, from any country, be able to come here whenever they want? Why have any immigration laws then?
There are costs incurred through immigration, too, including higher rental rates because of higher demand and a market flooded with cheap labor hurts the poor of this country, by lowering wages on manuel labor. The class hurt the most by illegal immigration is the American working poor, because of the lowering of wages and the increase in rent due to higher demand in areas with lots of illegals.
Construction jobs that used to pay $14 to $18 per hour, now pay closer to $8 to $12, for example (my brother is a contractor and tells me these things).
What is the answer? I don't know the answers. The recent arrest in Corvallis of a group of illegal immigrants involved in a cockfighting ring also highlights cultural differences, and acts considered criminal here, and atrocious that are widely accepted in places like Mexico. I also see the cultural related problems brought in with illegal immigrants, in regards to cats--not fixing them and abandoning them. To me it is a weary thing to consider---not only educating the ignorant in this culture about the need to fix animals, but to find a way to now reach out to thousands of Spanish speakers who don't even understand the concept of spay/neuter, due to the culture they came from, seems overwhelming.
This is why I think if a person wants to come to America, to become a citizen of this nation, they should take the steps to become a citizen, learn our culture and our language, not stand with a foot in each country.
If I tried to become a citizen of Canada, I would be rejected, because I am on disability and Canada does not want this financial burden. Canada has standards in this regard.
We constantly reject tax measures and health care reform in America. More uninsured people flooding the country illegally insure that more Americans get no health care either or limited options. Should we not care about our own people first? Canada does. Mexico does. Why can't the US?
How does the enumeration of votes work in Canada? I do like Australia's law also. I think we'd do well to have such here, with voter turn out so low. The vote by mail we have in Oregon is a double edged sword. Easier, on many, but I liked very much the social aspects of the voting booth. Also, the ballots are often lost and the date of the election gets misplaced in my mind, with vote by mail.
ReplyDeleteI like Mr. Edwards and his wife also, so far, in regards to democratic candidates running. Hilary Clinton is far too polarizing. If the Democrats elect her, to oppose the Republican candidate, it will be very close election and perhaps nothing will be different at all. I would take a chance on Obama, because he's much different and black and we certainly need a completely different personality and culture in WA, that's for sure. So I am waivering, between Edwards and Obama and leaning slightly towards Obama at this time, just because he's different than anyone I've seen run for a long time. Hilary clinton is too "Washingtonized" for me, more of the same.
Before we condemn other nations for having corrupt leadership we should take a closer look at our own pocket-lining gluttons. I think the American government is incredibly corrupt- look at who won all the contracts to rebuild Iraq? George's friends. Who makes all the dollars? George's friends. Who sanctioned an illegal war in the pursuit of oil? George and his friends. It goes on and on and on. And my stupid UK government followed along like a brainless dog (and I usually support Labour!). Most politicians are only out to line their own pockets, they care very little about Joe Public, about people like you and me.
ReplyDeleteHi again,
ReplyDeleteThis is a most interesting discussion - I am glad you started it Strayer. Though I am sure you had no plans for a dialogue when you wrote your comments. :-)
Before that tho furry, how did you get your meezer on as a avatar? I want to put my meezer there too.
Strayer, I do understand what you mean re immigrants. We have many of the same issues you have. For example, for many years now, Sikhs in the RCMP are allowed to wear a turban and carry a ceremonial dagger with them. The same is true for young men who attend schools in Quebec and took the case to a court there - I think we have enough problems in schools without permitting children of whatever gender to bring in anything that can be dangerous but there are always chemistry labs and judo classes so perhaps I should not be so judgmental.
I do think that by necessity, our cultures will change as more immigrants come to North America. Whether that is bad or good depends on what one's view of the world is. I am not entirely comfortable with the views of many Muslim men. I am half Irish Catholic and half Jewish so you can understand why. That said, I do know many who are fine people who treat women and others with respect. Not all are radicals or terrorists and I am at the point now of worrying about any extremist religious beliefs.
Our ancestors changed both our countries. Canada for most of our first centuries was a essentially a nation of European values and our ancestors were not entirely nice to the aboriginals who already lived here so that's another issue we face. I know the part of Canada where I live is the one where the fewest immigrants go to though I teach at a university so hear Mandarin and Arabic every week at work. I am studying Gaelic and have lived in Israel and studied Hebrew. I like to think that helps me to be more understanding of my own background. I can only hope.
It is actually a myth that the poor are hurt economically by immigrants though I am sure there are some anecdotal examples of individuals who may have lost their jobs but that is due more to public policy and govt decisions than the fault of immigrants choosing to seek a better life somewhere. Indeed, I spent some time in Ireland teaching and knew why my ancestors hated to leave!!
I am not an ardent nationalist and I firmly opine that is a misplaced and even dangerous emotion. Look what it did to Ireland and I need not cite the example of Hitler and how he used nationalism. It does seem as though Americans are more nationalistic re their country than we are. Home of the Free and all of that. In Canada, we are a little less like that. This, I think, is one reason why we are slightly different regarding immigration. We have never had the whole melting pot notion where everyone becomes part of a great country. Here, people do still celebrate their cultures and while that is a good thing (I myself am proud of my Irish and Jewish heritage but it is not the most important aspect in life for me.)it can divide people as well. We have trouble identifying what it means to be Canadian other than being polite and caring and fiercely guarding our health care system. A couple years ago, our main broadcaster (TV) had a contest for Canadians to name the Greatest Canadian - By a large margin, we chose Tommy Douglas who is considered the father of our public health care system. He was the first leader of a socialist government in North America - Saskatchewan in 1944. (I think - I'd have to check the date). Of course, that needs some tweaking as well and is another story.
While in Florida once giving a talk to a League of Women Voters meeting (they were all Dems - why is that?), I was asked about two issues re Canada - health care and Quebec, lol (To be sure, we are only one country amg many who have nationalized health care - it is actually the norm amg industrialized countries. US is the exception there.)
They were also interested in the enumeration of voters we do. I was astounded to see how voters are registered in the US tho the new laws re drivers licenses should help in many states I would think.
Here, for all elections - federal, provincial and municipal, the two parties who finished one and two in the last election are asked to submit names to the Returning officer in each electoral district. At the federal level, this means the PARTIES who finished first and second. In most provinces - tho the laws are all different - it means the parties that finished first and second PROVINCIALLY. This is more helpful to the smaller parties at the federal level because we do have five parties - well four major ones now that there has been a merger of the right wing Conservative and Alliance parties.
These people are then trained to go door to door in much the same way census takers do to obtain information about who is eligible to vote. At both provincial and federal levels, there is a special effort made to ensure people who are marginalized like homeless and people who are very transient (apartment dwellers) are included. There are extra funds for this.
We are moving more toward a fulltime electronic list now that will be updating so in the last provincial election here, the Elections Office hired what are known as Revision Agents - people who added people who were not on the list in the last election. They did this by adding people at the elections offices in each of our 55 ridings (and the same was true for a recent New Brunswick election next door) as well as going directly to areas where transient people live - apartment buildings, senior citizens homes, special care homes, jails (many people in jail do get to vote, especially if you are not serving time for anything significant.) Military people vote in federal elections in the riding they are FROM so if they are in Germany or God forbid, Afghanistan, or another province, their vote goes back to their riding and is counted there. A special effort is made also for disabled persons and election sites by law have to be accessible to all - and that includes braille ballots. We have no hanging chads!
This does help us get out a somewhat larger vote percentage than the US, especially in rural areas where people tend to need their representative more and rely on him or her for more government services. In one riding I know of, 95% of the eligible voters actually cast ballots. Considering that when the US Elections officials state that they had a voter turnout of say, 40% and that is of eligible voters and less than half of Americans who should be are registered to vote, you can see the difference. It IS harder to vote I think in the US in part because unless a party member signs you up or you go to an office of the state Secretary of State (usually the office that oversees elections at all levels in each state), you will not have someone knocking at tour door. I noticed in Fla that many women refused to vote because they had to give their age. And after all we had to do get the vote!! I wanted to scream!
We do NOT vote directly for a Prime Minister. We vote for a party and the person who is Prime Minister is Leader of that party - similar (tho there are subtle differences) to the way people vote in Britain. The person who is Leader of the party who wins the most seats becomes Prime Minister. I suppose the downside to that is that this means that very few people select the person who is the leader because we use leadership conventions - either one member one vote or by delegation of party members to a central location though increasingly, parties have more than one place to vote or members can vote by phone. That is a whole other issue - one I as a party member- am concerned with.
I also like the way Ireland votes - the STV - single Transferable vote - a rather complicated method of stating who your preferences are on election day. ie, if there are 10 candidates seeking 4 places , you number your preference and the votes are tabulated until all four places are filled. If you are truly interested in this, here is a better explanation than I can give just off the top of my head:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_transferable_vote
I hope this answers all your questions. I hope I did not digress too much!! Thx for the intriguing discussion! It has been fun!!
Well, it isn't a myth that illegal immigration hurts poor people because it does so right here where I live. Construction wages have plummetted while rents continue to rise. I know several contractors who talk freely about the reasons they pay much less now. It is no myth. If employers can get cheaper labor they will hire cheaper labor. Illegals work cheaper than legals. So if you want a job then, as a legal, you must take the lower wages, too.
ReplyDeleteSome people I know, who don't vote, don't register because they do not want called for jury duty. Lists of eligibles for jury duty are taken off voter registration lists for that city or county. Jury duty can be destructive to people in lower wage jobs, depending on the length of the duty. They can end up losing their place to live even, because of very tight budgets, if called to jury duty. You lose days or weeks of wages with almost no compensation. If you're living hand to mouth, you can't survive that and remain with a roof over your head. So that is a deterrent to voting.
So I ask again, should we then have zero immigration laws and completely open borders?
Shall we just let everyone in, then? You condemn nationalism, yet Canada certainly does not have open borders nor does it have the illegal immigration problem that we have, with all the problems, including paying for health care for illegals. We can't even afford to take care of US citizens. It is straining our decrepid health care system even more. Sure, we need to reform it, but until we do, its back is breaking under the load. If we are to take care of Mexican citizens, will Canada then also? We could send half up to you then ok?
I need to ask you, why would you advocate for illegal immigration to be accepted in the US, as a Canadian. Canada has strict immigration policy. An American citizen with a felony conviction cannot enter your country. Many illegals are criminals, going back and forth across the border. Without border checks of people, criminals enter the US. Do you advocate in Canada for change then?
ReplyDeleteThere have been two high profile murders in the US in recent weeks by illegal immigrants. One was in Oregon. Two cousins, both here illegally, killed a 15 year old girl in Oregon City. One put his foot across her throat as his cousin raped her. It is unclear if the rape was complete before she died, from asphixiation, due to the foot across her throat. He stepped on her so hard there were imprints left on her throat from his shoes. The other was the execution of three very nice young people (the fourth survived the gunshot to her head) by an illegal immigrant from a South American country in a robbery gone bad.
We have plenty of these violent elements among our own population. We don't need more coming across the border illegally.
As for our governmental corruption, I know it stinks to high heaven. I think one way to decrease it would be to send lobbyists packing. They are buying votes and politicians. This shouldn't be. Also, I believe all political donations maybe should be anonymous. That way politicians would not know who donated and not feel indebted to that group or company in creating policy.
The current troupe in WA is sad. When our President makes a redneck hick statement like "We're kicking ass in Iraq", says a lot about the American people's ideals. Intelligence is no longer an asset we value, while brute force, illiterate and crass remarks, are.
I guess I did not think I was asking for open borders - I did not say that if you read what I said. :-) Maybe I did not write it well enough - I tend to get carried away on occasion in my passion. I do not advocate for illegal immigration but I do believe in helping people who will be killed if they return to their own country.
ReplyDeleteI have seen so many refugees who come to Canada - at least our little city here - and are in desperate circumstances and I think of all the people in govt and people in general who did nothing to stop the Holocaust or even the Great Hunger in Ireland - different times - but in both cases, not all refugees were allowed in to either Canada or the US. That was injustice because peple died.
Here, we get CNN and I am so tired of listening to Lou Dobbs. My mom actually calls him the "illegal alien" because he goes on about that so often yet I bet he has never been poor, never had to worry where his next meal is from and yet he blames people who are the poorest of the poor!
I understand that you have your own examples of people who have been hurt by illegal immigration. That is still not the fault of the illegal immigrants. It IS the fault of the government who has poor policies in place.
Canada immigration laws need changing as well. We do indeed allow people in who should not be here. I was furious to discover a few yrs ago that the wife of a Somali war lord was living on welfare in Toronto. She was finally deported (I think!) but there are more like her. I worry about terrorists though I do not believe we are the haven for them that some in the media seem to believe. Still, we are generous to immigrants but we need them. We have a declining birth rate and who will be the workers of tomorrow to find all our social programs and our pension plans. As a society, we have no choice but to rely on immigration. There are no large families any more - a good thing for women who never were served well by that to begin with.
I suspect most of us worry about the US because you are such a large country and US policy tends to affect ours whether we like it or not and to be honest, it is not always positive. The new passport regulations are a case in point. I grew up living near the US border - as do the majority of Canadians (80% of us live 100 miles from the US border). So it is an interchangeable place for me - for so many families. Families live on both sides of the border - mine is one of them. Now to visit relatives for the afternoon, I need my passport, It does not bother me because I already have a Passport but it seems ludicrous to have to show my passport just to visit my cousin or to go grocery shopping or to the library!
I think most Americans do not realize how close Canadians are to the US - that we are affected by its policies and it affects us personally.
I would prefer the US govt tighten up security at airports! Logan Airport in Boston - where 2 of the planes that fateful 9/11 day left is worse than in Halifax where they screen you three times. There, it's hello and goodbye and they xray your luggage only. I fail to see how penalizing folks who are crossed the border all their lives for life's necessities (Residents of one community in New Brunswick have has no choice but to cross a bridge in the US to get to their pharmacy in Canada and that is one minor example.) Perhaps a FastPass or something might be an alternative there - I don't know.
I do understand how it would be frustrating to loose one's job or have to take pay cuts due to immigration but the answer to that is to have higher paying jobs. We have a similar situation here but it is not due to illegal immigrants but people on employment insurance or govt subsidies of some kind who are only allowed to earn so much before they have to declare it. They get paid "under the table" That is no different than illegal immigrants creating lower wages, no? This is a region of high unemployment and so many peple just look the other way - and it benefits the contractors but hardly the people who need to earn a decent living.
I am not attempting to tell the US govt what to do and am sorry if that is how it came across. I was merely expressing an opinion - I am not the enemy, just someone interested in what you do and who cares. And who thinks back to how my own ancestors were treated (not well!) when they came to the US and Canada. I don't support illegal immigration but neither will I turn my back on people who need help. The govt may help the war lords - both our govts helped the Nazis!! - but I'll do what I can to assist those who really truly need help.
I lost a close friend and nearly a family member in NYC on 9/11 so yes, US policy does concern me!! I also made wonderful friends that day too though - I "hosted" two families from California whose plane was diverted to Halifax. (They had to like cats though, lol)
No, I know you're not trying to tell the US government what to do. We all need to work together to solve all these issues. People who are in grave danger in their own countries, of course we should take them, because we can, we have the resources and the desire to help such people. It's so complicated. I've heard a lot of angry US citizens complain about the passport required fiasco, and the backlog. I don't know, wish we could all just work on these issues together with Mexico also as a partner.
ReplyDeleteI don't watch Lou Dobbs and I don't watch that Glenn guy either on CNN or whatever he's on. They're like stuck records.
by definition, we are all sons and daughters of immigrants though...immigration is just what happens and has happened for thousands of years, hence culture changes and adapts. i'm sure the native americans and the anglo-saxons wouldn't recognie 'their' countries today...
ReplyDelete